The colormodel of munsell, for example, takes into account that some light waves have the same energy, they are experienced in a different brightness. >Helmholz-Kohlrausch effect
The Color model is dependent on what you want to do with it but in Ittens case, it doesn’t even help with pigment mixing nor as a perceptual representation.
I’m sorry I’ve really tried to understand what your position is but I can’t wrap my head around it. I find this really interesting but I don’t understand it, are you willing to help?
Itten is “normal” RYB color wheel, yes?
Can you ELI5 how Munsell is different? The graphic you linked pretty much looks like it showed the same RYB archetype, with some layers and different levels of brightness… Isn’t that just RYB with extra steps?
Here’s some things that might help us meet in the middle:
-i struggle with concepts of hue, contrast, brightness, luminosity, flux
-i am not an artist at all. I have pretty strong aphantasia - I’m not sure if that’s relevant but it seems like it might be in this case so I’ll mention it here
Sure. Colors are a huge topic and I’m not a physicist. There are a lot of colorsystems, and I probably don’t know half of it, but I try to break it down.
There is no real “normal” colormodel. We just sort colors on a chart that fits our needs the best.
The color model you will see most often is, for instance, in Photoshop the HSV model. (Hue, saturation, value). It’s good but has its own flaws with the color brightness.
In Ittens and Munsells case, you can see a small difference in the colors that are opposite of each other, in both colorwheels.
In munsels case, yellow is opposed to indigo.
In ittens case yellow is opposed to violet.
itten
Munsell
That’s a small but significant difference. Opposing colors should combine into grey and not into other colors. In ittens case they don’t.
(Upper is correct, lower is Itten)
Munsell is closer to a perceptive color space that takes into consideration that colors have different value and chroma levels, and vivid yellow is brighter than a vivid indigo.
Itten only used the flat ring model and lost the value and brightness of colors.
Now I compare those two because they are from the same time period, and Ittens model even came a little later.
Thanks for entertaining my struggle. I get it now.
When I referred to itten as “normal” I was making reference to its prevalence (which seems to be something that peeves you, given it’s inaccuracy), but I think it’s so prevalent because it’s so damn simple. I had to read and re-read your posts and look at your graphics in order to understand what the various layers were signifying, but the flat itten wheel is easy as pie to comprehend to the point that it’s taught to children in preschool. I’ve never really needed any more depth of understanding in my day to day life since then.
Like many models, the simplest are often very inaccurate on a technical level. As a layman the difference between indigo and violet and purple and blue green or whatever are unremarkable in most cases, so the slight yet important difference of which is across from yellow on the wheel doesn’t seem significant, until you showed an example of how they mix.
I can see why it bugs you if you have experience in a field that uses color theory as part of its toolkit. For me I’ve always just needed to know the bare minimum of RGB vs CMYK or whatever.
What would you prefer to see, that there’s just better education about colors once people are old enough to get some more nuance?
Can you post examples of what correct and incorrect models look like?
Itten
Munsell
The colormodel of munsell, for example, takes into account that some light waves have the same energy, they are experienced in a different brightness. >Helmholz-Kohlrausch effect
The Color model is dependent on what you want to do with it but in Ittens case, it doesn’t even help with pigment mixing nor as a perceptual representation.
I’m sorry I’ve really tried to understand what your position is but I can’t wrap my head around it. I find this really interesting but I don’t understand it, are you willing to help?
Itten is “normal” RYB color wheel, yes?
Can you ELI5 how Munsell is different? The graphic you linked pretty much looks like it showed the same RYB archetype, with some layers and different levels of brightness… Isn’t that just RYB with extra steps?
Here’s some things that might help us meet in the middle:
-I understand radio/light/EM spectrum/frequencies/amplitudes
-i struggle with concepts of hue, contrast, brightness, luminosity, flux
-i am not an artist at all. I have pretty strong aphantasia - I’m not sure if that’s relevant but it seems like it might be in this case so I’ll mention it here
Sure. Colors are a huge topic and I’m not a physicist. There are a lot of colorsystems, and I probably don’t know half of it, but I try to break it down.
There is no real “normal” colormodel. We just sort colors on a chart that fits our needs the best.
The color model you will see most often is, for instance, in Photoshop the HSV model. (Hue, saturation, value). It’s good but has its own flaws with the color brightness.
In Ittens and Munsells case, you can see a small difference in the colors that are opposite of each other, in both colorwheels. In munsels case, yellow is opposed to indigo. In ittens case yellow is opposed to violet.
itten
Munsell
That’s a small but significant difference. Opposing colors should combine into grey and not into other colors. In ittens case they don’t.
Munsell is closer to a perceptive color space that takes into consideration that colors have different value and chroma levels, and vivid yellow is brighter than a vivid indigo.
Itten only used the flat ring model and lost the value and brightness of colors.
Now I compare those two because they are from the same time period, and Ittens model even came a little later.
Munsells color model even holds today.
Thanks for entertaining my struggle. I get it now.
When I referred to itten as “normal” I was making reference to its prevalence (which seems to be something that peeves you, given it’s inaccuracy), but I think it’s so prevalent because it’s so damn simple. I had to read and re-read your posts and look at your graphics in order to understand what the various layers were signifying, but the flat itten wheel is easy as pie to comprehend to the point that it’s taught to children in preschool. I’ve never really needed any more depth of understanding in my day to day life since then.
Like many models, the simplest are often very inaccurate on a technical level. As a layman the difference between indigo and violet and purple and blue green or whatever are unremarkable in most cases, so the slight yet important difference of which is across from yellow on the wheel doesn’t seem significant, until you showed an example of how they mix.
I can see why it bugs you if you have experience in a field that uses color theory as part of its toolkit. For me I’ve always just needed to know the bare minimum of RGB vs CMYK or whatever.
What would you prefer to see, that there’s just better education about colors once people are old enough to get some more nuance?