I think it is honestly really pathetic that so many of you claim to love language and yet what you really love is having a rigid form of interaction that you can shame people for not perfectly following or reacting intuitively to.
Language is ALWAYS a negotiation, if you dismiss people that interpret your sentences without a period as passive-aggressive, YOU are the one that loses because you have undermined the basic premise of communicating with others in favor of the comforting idea that there are a perfect set of unchanging abstract rules that can be applied to communication that delineate a “correct” way to do things.
There are no rules to language, language is not decided by a committee, language is a living breathing thing that does not give a fuck about your condescending attempt to lock it in stone and direct it towards being used as a tool to shame others with.
You don’t get to decide what people react to and don’t react to in your language.
Oddly enough, I don’t claim to really love language for the sake of language, but it’s pretty useful in my day to day so I try to use it well. I like your post, so, in the spirit of negotiation let’s use the term baseline instead of rules.
The bulk of educational and informational works on the English language gives us a kind of baseline for our written language. When someone deviates from that baseline, most of the time we can still understand them because we can see how it differs and can infer their intent based on context and that baseline.
The dictionaries, style guides, and grammar texts that give us our baseline exist to facilitate written communication, not stifle it. They’re the result of hundreds of years of these kinds of negotiations, not just arbitrary choice as so many people claim. Good grammar isn’t just a cudgel to beat the creativity out of kids, it’s the benefit of centuries worth of experience and study. Just as new ideas shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand, we also shouldn’t disregard past practice simply on the basis of it’s age.
Baselines do change. But it’s a slow process, not every popular new deviation will stand the test of time, and many antique forms are still present in our modern language. Think of it like scientific progress. Some ideas are validated by experimentation, others are proven wrong. Our understanding of the universe is more complex now than centuries ago, but there are still numerous constants that have been proven time after time. Our language has grown more complex too, but that doesn’t mean that some very old ideas about how to communicate in writing aren’t still useful today.
But you’re very, very right about shame and reactions, and I’d be dishonest not to admit that. It’s too easy for armchair grammarians to treat language as if it exists in a logic vacuum separate from human emotion, and that’s simply not the case.
Omitting a period from a text isn’t a crime, I freely admit that I’m often a grumpy old asshole about this sort of thing when I shouldn’t be, and you’re 100% correct that people shouldn’t be shamed over it.
At the same time, the reverse is also true. Not every plea for punctuation and grammar is creative or ideological tyranny, and if some people react poorly to a text that omits punctuation, that’s not something the author has a say in either.
At any rate, I hope this comes of as intended, a genuine, if overly lengthy explanation from someone who supports the widespread use of punctuation, and not just Grandpa Simpson yelling at a cloud. =)
I agree so much and I love it. I love texting. I love adjusting my language and tone to fit the social setting I am in. Or break it on purpose. And it’s so incredible that just by texting a person you’ve just recently made contact with you can find out soo much about their social setting, life, their circles and beliefs and attitudes. The closer I get to people the more memes and stickers I use to communicate. And usually by their choice of memes and stickers tell me a lot about them too.
Language is amazeballs. I sincerely hope that when my daughter grows up she will be able to switch to the most insane gibberish that will sound like random ass code to me when talking to her friends. And hopefully switch back to be understandable when talking with me.
Yes! Preach!
Same with new words. Every generation gets angry with the next generation using new words but you don’t get to decide how I use words. I will adhere to certain rules so we can keep understanding each other but all the members of the commission will have to be willing to rewrite the rules if the language has changed.
Thank you! It’s sad this comment is so far down. This has been one of the most confusing group of responses I’ve read on the fediverse so far. So many angry and unmovable people who sound like they don’t communicate with humans.
Saving this for the next time I could you use scathing takedown.
As the other person says it’s the same with new words and people looking down on the next generation like theirs didn’t do the same. I love that language evolves, always something to learn. Better than shouting at clouds, which should be Lemmy’s tagline.
I think it is honestly really pathetic that so many of you claim to love language and yet what you really love is having a rigid form of interaction that you can shame people for not perfectly following or reacting intuitively to.
Language is ALWAYS a negotiation, if you dismiss people that interpret your sentences without a period as passive-aggressive, YOU are the one that loses because you have undermined the basic premise of communicating with others in favor of the comforting idea that there are a perfect set of unchanging abstract rules that can be applied to communication that delineate a “correct” way to do things.
There are no rules to language, language is not decided by a committee, language is a living breathing thing that does not give a fuck about your condescending attempt to lock it in stone and direct it towards being used as a tool to shame others with.
You don’t get to decide what people react to and don’t react to in your language.
Oddly enough, I don’t claim to really love language for the sake of language, but it’s pretty useful in my day to day so I try to use it well. I like your post, so, in the spirit of negotiation let’s use the term baseline instead of rules.
The bulk of educational and informational works on the English language gives us a kind of baseline for our written language. When someone deviates from that baseline, most of the time we can still understand them because we can see how it differs and can infer their intent based on context and that baseline.
The dictionaries, style guides, and grammar texts that give us our baseline exist to facilitate written communication, not stifle it. They’re the result of hundreds of years of these kinds of negotiations, not just arbitrary choice as so many people claim. Good grammar isn’t just a cudgel to beat the creativity out of kids, it’s the benefit of centuries worth of experience and study. Just as new ideas shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand, we also shouldn’t disregard past practice simply on the basis of it’s age.
Baselines do change. But it’s a slow process, not every popular new deviation will stand the test of time, and many antique forms are still present in our modern language. Think of it like scientific progress. Some ideas are validated by experimentation, others are proven wrong. Our understanding of the universe is more complex now than centuries ago, but there are still numerous constants that have been proven time after time. Our language has grown more complex too, but that doesn’t mean that some very old ideas about how to communicate in writing aren’t still useful today.
But you’re very, very right about shame and reactions, and I’d be dishonest not to admit that. It’s too easy for armchair grammarians to treat language as if it exists in a logic vacuum separate from human emotion, and that’s simply not the case.
Omitting a period from a text isn’t a crime, I freely admit that I’m often a grumpy old asshole about this sort of thing when I shouldn’t be, and you’re 100% correct that people shouldn’t be shamed over it.
At the same time, the reverse is also true. Not every plea for punctuation and grammar is creative or ideological tyranny, and if some people react poorly to a text that omits punctuation, that’s not something the author has a say in either.
At any rate, I hope this comes of as intended, a genuine, if overly lengthy explanation from someone who supports the widespread use of punctuation, and not just Grandpa Simpson yelling at a cloud. =)
I agree so much and I love it. I love texting. I love adjusting my language and tone to fit the social setting I am in. Or break it on purpose. And it’s so incredible that just by texting a person you’ve just recently made contact with you can find out soo much about their social setting, life, their circles and beliefs and attitudes. The closer I get to people the more memes and stickers I use to communicate. And usually by their choice of memes and stickers tell me a lot about them too.
Language is amazeballs. I sincerely hope that when my daughter grows up she will be able to switch to the most insane gibberish that will sound like random ass code to me when talking to her friends. And hopefully switch back to be understandable when talking with me.
If people react poorly to correct grammar that’s on them not me.
Yes! Preach! Same with new words. Every generation gets angry with the next generation using new words but you don’t get to decide how I use words. I will adhere to certain rules so we can keep understanding each other but all the members of the commission will have to be willing to rewrite the rules if the language has changed.
Thank you! It’s sad this comment is so far down. This has been one of the most confusing group of responses I’ve read on the fediverse so far. So many angry and unmovable people who sound like they don’t communicate with humans.
Saving this for the next time I could you use scathing takedown.
As the other person says it’s the same with new words and people looking down on the next generation like theirs didn’t do the same. I love that language evolves, always something to learn. Better than shouting at clouds, which should be Lemmy’s tagline.