Third places
45% of men 18 to 25 have never asked out a woman in person
I can’t speak for the whole 45% but some of us have heard stories from women about how that other 55% can behave. I think I’d rather wait for a lady to (never) ask me out then put someone in the position of thinking “Oh, is he gonna take it bad if I say no?”
This is it. I feel like I am inflicting myself on women. That I am a problem for them simply for existing. Why would I do something like that to someone if its as bad as we are always being told?
Get out and ask some people. Plenty of women like it as long as you’re polite
“Polite” implies that if you’re agreeable and friendly women will understand that you’re interested in them and not just being agreeable and friendly.
I think part of the problem is that what we’re all really after is fucking, which isn’t polite at all. Being polite about it just makes you look weak and ineffective at the thing that we all say we want but can’t mention.
If any mention of sex by a man is considered inappropriate, how is a man supposed to negotiate sex?
This is a big reason why I’m engaged: We got the impolite part out of the way first.
The “sex is impolite” thing… I think that’s a lot bigger than a lot of people give credit. I grew up in a non-denominational Christian house in the deep South. The only sex education I got was abstinence only, if you have sex with someone it’s basically the same as having sex with every person that person has ever had sex with. Your penis will fall off, her vagina will fall off, and you’ll have 37 babies.
Obviously, on an intellectual level, I’ve rejected all of that. Sex is fine and normal, having multiple partners throughout your life is normal. Your penis and her vagina will be fine, as long as you’re careful. No kids if you’re careful.
Despite this, for my entire life, sex has just been a thing that you don’t talk about. You don’t ask for. You’re not a friend if you want sex, you’re a pest. But also, you can’t want sex from someone you’ve just met, then you’re a creep and a pervert. You have to be their friend first, build a relationship and then you can want sex, but remember - you’re not a friend if you want sex, so you’re just living a lie to get sex. It’s a vicious catch 22. One of the biggest driving factors in all animals - sex - and we’ve moralized it so that we both cannot seek it and must obtain it.
I’ve got a fair few female friends. Some of them I would not mind having a deeper relationship with. But there’s always the struggle. Am I just being nice to get with her? Well, I can’t do that - I’d feel like a horrible person. So let’s just be friends and ignore the feelings for too long. Let’s let her believe we’re just friends, nothing more, until I can’t ignore it, confess feelings, and - shocker - that’s not a recipe for a relationship.
We’re all products of our environment. I can recognize a lot of the factors that have led me to having the mentality that I do. Unfortunately, the environments for so many of us are just not good ones. It feels like every major force in our lives is pushing us towards isolation. The problem isn’t men, isn’t women, it’s all just fucked. The whole thing needs an overhaul.
Thanks for this because it is exactly what I’m talking about. I wasn’t raised in a Christian house, but anything that was even vaguely titillating was considered obscene. When your mom angrily throws out a Victoria’s Secret catalog calling it “disgusting” how are you supposed to feel about liking the pictures?
If someone thinks their physical attraction is disgusting, perverse, or annoying how are they supposed to negotiate a relationship?
And unfortunately, one of the only places that are consistently telling young men they AREN’T disgusting, perverse and annoying is the same place that actively makes men into annoying, perverse, disgusting people. For a lot of young men, the only consistent positive reinforcement they receive is from Tate et al. The only ones teaching men (poorly, but still) how to navigate these interpersonal relationships are the ones turning them into pests.
None of this is the individual woman’s fault. None of this is the individual man’s fault. It’s a societal failing, and the only way we’re going to fix it is as a society. Men’s problems are women’s problems, and women’s problems are men’s problems. We all shape the world we share, and we all have a duty to shape it into a better one, for everyone.
Women don’t want to be approached in public.
Men learn this quickly.
Also that speed dating stat is totally a lie, every dating event is a sausage fest.
Women don’t want to be approached in public.
I think the problem is that men don’t want to be approached in public. Or in private, for that matter. Half the joke of this is how antisocial, short-tempered, and easily discouraged men are.
Please, approach me in public. I’ll be flattered even if you’re not my type and will treat you with the utmost respect. It happened in the past.
Women have been told they only need to exist to be desired and are not putting any effort at the beginning of the relationship and men are getting tired of doing all the lift without any reciprocation.
That has been my experience, anyway, and I’m getting tired of meeting women that show no effort to make things work.
reading this thread I’m glad I’m a removed in a relationship. my spouse is the best. i got so fucking lucky.
there’s a massive epidemic of loneliness out there. the loss of the free/cheap third spaces, lockdowns, and social media have made a fucking shitstorm. I’m scared for the generations below me just starting to enter the workforce. so many kids just unable to function properly.
i can’t solve it. but I’ve been putting my devices down more and (trying) to get out more. get more sunlight and fresh air, even if i just sit outside and watch the ducks. it’s hard out there. give yourself a break, okay? eat a snack and take a walk.
Men don’t want to be branded ‘creepy’ and women have constantly stated they want to be left alone. Men listened.
Man vs bear debate sealed the deal for a ton of guys
It made me decide the world would be a better place without us. What right do we have to exist if we make 50% of the world so frightened just by existing?
Even if true and you’re serious- it’s irrelevant anyway. You’re still a person and it’s your fundamental human right to exist.
Don’t ever let anyone tell you otherwise. Either we humans all get along together, or there shouldn’t be any humans.
What other conclusions is there? It’s better just to kill yourself on the inside and go along with the man vs bear crowd because the only other choice seems to be a nazi. It doesn’t mater what kind of person you are when your entire gender is considered dangerous.
Don’t let either horde of morons on the internet dictate what you believe and why.
I’m still a leftist and haven’t stopped being one just because dumb motherfuckers and inflammatory rhetoric exist.
This has made me wildly unpopular on places like Lemmy etc. but idgaf because I know my reasoning is sound and can back it up, so challenges to my views that are welcome that don’t employ valid reasoning are discarded. I live my life to my principles and idc about being agreeable or agreed with anymore.
Didn’t they explicitly ask via #metoo movement and what not for men to NOT approach them directly ever or else they screem that this is harassment?
If you mistook ‘don’t be creepy’ for ‘don’t approach women at all,’ then yeah. You’re probably in a mental place where you shouldn’t approach.
No dating for the autists who aren’t good with social cues, got it.
Dating is a social activity. I’m not sure how you do it without being able to perform socially, but there’s probably resources out there to learn from.
Given how a lot of women are, don’t be creepy does mean “don’t approach them at all. Unless I’m interested in you, which I won’t tell you because men have to make the first move”.
That wasn’t my experience at all when dating. Just treat them like a person. Be friends. If you get on ok, then make your move. They often beat me to it.
If the cold open approach isn’t working, change strategies.
Well when men keep hearing “don’t approach us”, we shouldn’t be shocked when men don’t approach people.
Cry me a river. I’ve never heard a women say “don’t approach me”, but I’ve heard many say “don’t be a douche” and “stop thinking you’re a fucking victim”.
You already forgot the bear in the woods?
Honestly, I get it’s a green text, but this is pretty easily explained. First off: dating is fucking expensive, and unfortunately standard gender roles means the dude foots the bill most of the time. Yes times are changing, but that’s still pretty standard. Pair that with the fact that dudes usually have to make the first move (again, old gender standards) and the fact that social media adds another layer of risk of being ridiculed or making someone viral because they were ‘crimge’ or ‘gave the girl the ick’ and it’s a pretty stacked deck. Hell, point one is such a strong weigh in that it’s enough to explain all of it. People are more broke than ever, and if dating by default involves going out, well guess that date isn’t going to happen.
I recently ended a 6 year relationship. I’m not going to settle down with anyone again unless they have their own stuff going on like a career and goals. I think a lot of women expect men to manage all the finances, set goals, plan vacations and provide stability but they don’t want to do the traditional gender role stuff like cooking and cleaning or making a home. So what’s the point? Why make someone else’s life easier if they don’t do the same for you? had a son young(I was 19 when I had him) and he’s 11 now, so it’s not like I’m dreaming of starting a family. Most women bring nothing to the table. And if you’re lucky enough like me to have a good income, house, car, etc… you realize a lot of things are easier living alone.
Women want the princess treatment but don’t know how to act like a princess. Beyond that, sex isn’t all it’s hyped up to be. I know I sound like a redpill incel but dating shouldn’t be a priority for anyone. What’s the rush? Don’t fall for the first thing you see, make sure they’re worth it first.
I get there’s a bit of biterness here, but speaking as an older millennial this was my experience as well. Feminism created a weird gap of women becoming strong and independent, but with some meant ‘im not going to do traditional fem, but expect you to do traditional man’ with no compromise. I ended up finding a wonderful woman and we both split everything, but it took me 20 years.
If you decide to date again, you should consider dating liberal women. The only women I have known who are like you describe are conservative(and I have met one or two who expect the princess treatment and then don’t deliver on the prince treatment!). I know conservative men who expect traditional roles, and I know conservative men who expect to split the bills and say they’ll split the housework but then the woman ends up doing all the housework anyway. The women in that situation end up feeling like you: if I’m doing the housework AND working, this is easier on my own!
In my liberal circles things seem to be a bit more evenly split, and both partners are often more independent.
It seems like you’re happy on your own though, so you’re doing the right thing by removing yourself from the dating pool! Maybe you’ll find someone independent who will be a good match naturally, but I can’t imagine a woman would want to work and split the housework with someone who has your attitude (“most women are bad and not worth having around”) so you might need to change that if you do decide to get back into dating. I can’t connect on what you mean on sex not being the best thing in the world and the literal purpose of life, but I do know my husband felt like you on that front before he met me. He thought people were just exaggerating on how good it is. Maybe, like him, you just haven’t met the right match there either? It’s not like I’m even that good in bed, if anything I’m a bit of a selfish lover. It’s just that we’re a good fit together. Good luck, man. I hope you find the right fit and realize men and women are equally selfish and equally selfless.
Every time I see an article like this I think who fucking cares? Like what’s going on with men? Its a generational and cultural thing its not men’s fault. Dating sucks, people get rejected in ultra harsh ways, sometimes being filmed and then posted on social media for trying to ask someone out. If I was in the age range to be dating I wouldn’t bother.
Women might care?
I assume years of collectively crying about it online has made something as simple and natural like dating seem like this unachievable task.
Not sure if it’s just me, but I feel like young people are less capable than ever to socialise. I thought I was a social pariah, but I don’t have shit on some people out there.
I was a complete social reject in middle and high school so I don’t even know how to people but I just assumed that was just me and my miserable circumstances apparently a lot of people have the same problem?
Same, I struggle with people. I think it’s just that our kind of people are more active online.
There’s no third places where you can just loiter.
The men who are successful with dating are already dating or active in places where they are finding better success than clubs and arranged dating events.
The men who are unsuccessful at dating are confused and wary about women, who are no longer the compliant trad-wife wannabes that these men were lead to expect exist in numbers by the likes of “manospherian” influencers like Peterson, Tate, et al.
Its a lot more than the tiny incel community that is having trouble dating. The truth is most men don’t date anymore, they don’t even attempt to date. Its not about their expectations but the result of lived experiences as well as the culture they find themselves in.
There’s no pain from rejection if you never try, and without family members encouraging them to date or friends setting them up on blind dates there’s no actual reason to try. Relationships simply aren’t worth the risk or pain. Instead just hang out, watch porn to take care of basic needs, and never admit loneliness is a feeling; it probably won’t work out well for humanity but it works out well enough individually.
Not sure where you get the idea that “most men” are not dating. The description you make of what “most men” are doing sounds pretty much verbatim lifted out of something in the incel community.
According to Pew, around 63% of men under 30 are single, with 32% of all men being single (and about half are married.). Around 57% of all US single adults surveyed (with about equal distribution of men and women) say they’re not looking to date at all. That’s a majority of men that are simply not on the market. Only 42% of single people are looking for romance at all. And the reason I single out men is because between men and women, men who ARE looking to date are looking for serious relationships, where as women are not. (based on majority responses.)
I’m sorry you are so sheltered that everyone that doesn’t conform to your narrow set of experiences is an incel, but the truth is most men aren’t dating.
Most of the men in these comments have never tried speaking to a women.
Tell me more of what you know about the commenter’s here.
It’s pretty obvious man. Get some life experience and you might not be as bitter as the rest. Women don’t owe you or the rest of these incels anything.
Dude, read the comments on this post and then go outside and talk to a woman. See if anything said here makes sense. Multiple people here have admitted to never being in a relationship or just giving up on it, so the op is pretty much right. This is a really sad side of Lemmy to see.
The incels and misogynists are coming out in this thread, blaming women for shit and angrily downvoting comments that support women.
This post is a femcel meme blaming men for not asking women out.
Maybe women can ask man out?
So many comments echoing “women told us to stop approaching us, so we did!”
I mean no offense, truly, but you missed the point if that’s the message you took. It wasn’t “Do not, under any circumstances, speak to a woman” it was, “if you shoot your shot and she’s not interested, move on and don’t make it weird. If she is at work, be very careful as customer service does not equal flirting.” Yes, there are some grey areas (not sure even the best gentleman could slide up to a woman alone in a parking lot and not freak her out), but some of you are kicking up the board without even moving a piece. Stop pushing the narrative that only attractive men can speak to women. Not only are you assuming you’re not attractive by saying that (which cannot be good for your confidence) , you’re reducing women’s feelings and concerns as being blindly shallow and unwarranted.
The world is not full of only beautiful people, yet people still live and love. Not to dismiss the difficulties (as an uggo myself, I get it), but you can get out there, I know you can.
It wasn’t “Do not, under any circumstances, speak to a woman”
Actually, as explained to me by a woman, it was exactly that.
This was well after I had married, somewhere in my fifth decade, so I was off that particular playing field for quite some time by that point. But on a lark I had asked a feminist what this “leave women alone” refrain meant. And some of it made perfect sense: don’t hit up cashiers or anyone doing their jobs, they’re just being nice and friendly because they are being paid to be polite.
But it also meant don’t approach women when they’re shopping for groceries, as they’re probably tired from work and just want to go home. Don’t approach women on public transportation, as they’re just trying to get home and don’t want to be accosted in a cramped public venue. Don’t approach women when they’re out with friends, because they are with friends and don’t want to be cleaved off like how a predator isolates a member of a herd.
This went on and on, to some pretty ridiculous lengths. Whereupon I asked, “how is any man supposed to do an unsolicited approach to chat up a woman?”, to which she said - and no, not kidding at all - “They shouldn’t. Any man who we’re interested in will understand when we’re interested in them.”
Like… telepathy.
Literal
f**king
telepathy.Sure as shit, this is what a woman said to me.
Most men get absolutely zero life experience in decoding super-subtle hints, and now they’re supposed to miraculously become an expert in navigating a potentially life-destroying minefield, where the only two outcomes is magically getting it right, or risking a non-trivial probability of incarceration and a criminal record when they (invariably) get it wrong?
No wonder so many men are saying “thanks, but no thanks.” That the juice - the outcome - is just no longer worth the squeeze - all the effort and risk that is shouldered. I don’t blame them in the least. They’re the smart ones.
And those who are slightly less smart are at least asking the $10,000 question: why aren’t women making the first approach? I mean, isn’t that what this whole “equality of the sexes” shtick was all about? Why don’t women put their money where their mouths are, and ask MEN out, for a change? Because I can guarantee that while any normal woman will experience a certain level of rejection, it will still be several orders of magnitude less than what a similarly-normal man experiences.
I have a feeling this is a very american thing. Random encounters with the other sex were the norm in Germany (at least before tinder and the likes, no idea how it’s nowadays). Being confident got you a long way. Not always, mind you. But often enough. Most women actually like being spoken to, as long as it’s a friendly encounter. I believe it might be different in America because everyone there is trying to one up each other (often resulting in loud and annoying behavior). I wouldn’t want to be chatted up by the cliche american guy either.
sure thing, incel
