This is some very low-hanging fruit right here. I mean you’ll need to dig a trench to harvest it.
Wow stone cold take right there.
What do you think the mask hating whiners are? They’re toddlers with voting rights.
You feel angry. Think about why you feel angry. Is it something you came up with yourself or was it put there?
It was put there by science-denying troglodytes like yourself trying to drag civilization back into the Dark Ages. Enjoy your blood-letting and miasma treatments, don’t forget your nightly mercury applications.
You paint a very black-and-white cartoon
If bloodletting isn’t your thing, maybe you’d prefer a milk transfusion. They’ve made incredible advancements in trepanation if that’s more your speed. Have you tried sacrificing a goat to guarantee good health? I hear it can be really effective, just make sure you pick an in-network deity.
You feel angry. Think about why you need to project your anger onto others. Is it something you naturally do, or do scientific topics tend to stir up resentment in you?
(May I suggest being a bit funnier when rage baiting if thats what youre doing? Can’t tell, could also just be a very silly goose)
Well I’m not the one saying mean stuff, so yes, the rage is on your side.
Not really on any side here, nor am I saying mean things either! Was just hoping you’d end up being funny instead of trite but expectations were a bit too high on my end. Have a good one, hope i see you improved one day :)
Unfortunately, due to their lack of any humor I doubt they are a rage baiter and actually one of the many idiots who drink the Kool aid.
once they get diptheria, wooping cough, measles, mumps, rubella, as adults they will be even more scared. also you dont want chickenpox as an adult either.
Will they, though? I mean, the people who directly contract it might realize some regret and the error of their choices, some will be like smokers dying of emphysema that just keep smoking. Nothing will change them. The worst will be the kids that die, they never had a say in their medical treatment. There should be a lot of regret from the parents, but as we’ve seen, there’s plenty of stubbornness and mental gymnastics even then.
I’m still pissed my insurance won’t cover the shingles vax. Took over my right side and hurt like hell for, uh, six years now.
we’ve been begging for the shingles vaccine for years now. they won’t even let us pay out-of-pocket. we’re five years “too young” despite both my wife and i having already had shingles.
Too young? My sister got shingles in highschool! Anyone can get it.
congrats child. you’re at least ten years younger than me
I get you are pissed, but shingles generally is not contagious (exept for people who havent had chickenpox), nor dangerous (for healthy people), so i get that its pretty low on the priority lists.
Alltough if its lasted that long i would be worried why. Getting shingles usually is telltale sign for weakened immunity system, or mark off high stress and both of those are bad things.
What I really dislike is the parents who refuse to vaccinate their children, because big pharma/nature best/other insane arguments, but then take them to an ER when they inevitably get that preventable disease. For fuck’s sake, stay consistent. If you don’t vaccinate, do not go to the hospital later.
Devil’s Advocate: Being sick is an immediately visible problem; vaccinations… viruses are invisible and you don’t see symtoms till its too late
Some of us consider a narrative presented by the media to be more substantial than the way we feel. In fact such people might be in the majority.
Which is why we have decades of medical science that has gone to great lengths to discover these things. They can’t be seen by the naked eye but they can be seen with a strong enough microscope. We know they exist and we know what they cause. We know how to prevent that from happening.
Yet these mouth breathing troglodytes have been conned into distrusting science on a fundamental level.
Surely we are smart to trust the way we feel more than we trust a talking head on tv.
Says the twit regurgitating Fox News propaganda with absolutely no basis in fact, no sources, no data, nothing. Go find some credible primary sources for your horseshit - you’ll see there are none.
I don’t watch fox news.
And there’s that anger again. It’s almost like somebody told you to get angry.
Doesn’t mean your talking points aren’t the same.
No one is talking about the “talking heads on TV”. I’m talking about scientific institutions that have dedicated their entire existence to studying these things.
If you’re actually smart, you don’t trust the way you feel because human feeling and intuition is heavily flawed and prone to fallacy unless you have extensive education on a specific subject and even then you still don’t trust it unless you can back it up with evidence.
You trust institutions of authority that have demonstrably shown themselves to be correct with decades of empirically backed evidence and study.
Also, you remember that scene from 1984 where the hero was being tortured? He was told over and over to never trust himself and to only trust the state.
That’s you.
Wow, so not only are you just completely stupid but you also completely lack even a semblance of media literacy.
You do know that scientific institutions and the state are two completely different entities, right? Don’t answer, that was rhetorical, we all know you don’t know a goddamn thing.
For the purposes of my point the difference doesn’t matter. Both are offering themselves as authoritative truth. Both are advising the suppression of personal truth in favor of that authority.
(Now take a breath. Dang!)
The word from the “scientific institutions” arrives at your door in the form of, yes, a talking head. Speaking with great confidence like an AI.
I’ll keep trusting myself, thanks. It has served me well so far.
When you find yourself agreeing with the mob, that’s a good sign that you’re under the influence.
If you only use secondary and tertiary sources and never bother to look into the primary sources of information then you’re incredibly ignorant.
Fuck off, delusional moron. You are a walking ball of fallacy and Dunning-Kruger. It is clear how sorely lacking you are in education. Spoiled rotten idiot who has lived a life of relative safety thanks to the very science you try to dismiss.
You’re engaging with a ragebait account
There’s the anger. That’s what we inspire with our propaganda. Stop thinking and raaaaaaage!
4 reasons to fear the present vaccine.
It’s different from prior vaccines. So much so that they changed the definition for vaccine so the new one would fit it.
It’s being pushed by untrustworthy entities.
It’s got serious side-effects.
It is being pushed by the biggest propaganda campaign I ever saw. It really is impressive, and scary, to see the media and the public so in-synch.
It’s different from prior vaccines. So much so that they changed the definition for vaccine so the new one would fit it.
No, the definition of vaccine has not changed. I’m assuming you’re attempting to quote this article, but through the lens of Fox News propaganda: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8656271/ If you read the publication (I know, that’ll be difficult for you), it clearly states that there was a prior need that was made apparent to ensure that various groups in the scientific community, as well as laypeople, to have a consistent definition of various terms. However, “Vaccine” as defined, has always meant using methods to train the body how to respond to infection without causing infection.
It’s being pushed by untrustworthy entities.
Source?
It’s got serious side-effects.
What’s “It’s”? I’m assuming you’re talking about Hydroxychlorine? That definitely has serious side effects. If you’re talking about the covid vaccines?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X24001270 All but a few observed side effects were above the baseline expected conditions for a given population. The one you’re probably thinking of is myocarditis, because it was one that was higher than expected. It’s “serious”, but not necessarily life threatening. Also, it’s at a rate of about 3 people per 100,000, and unvaccinated people who caught covid were 5x more likely to experience it compared to vaccinated in any condition.
It is being pushed by the biggest propaganda campaign I ever saw. It really is impressive, and scary, to see the media and the public so in-synch.
https://www.tamug.edu/nautilus/articles/v32-i2-AntiVaxx.html
https://wiisglobal.org/the-politics-of-fear-right-wing-anti-gender-and-anti-vaccination-narratives/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-vaccine_activism
Sure thing, champ
I can tell a lot of effort went into this but the person you are talking to clearly has no ability to recognize empirical evidence. They are utterly guided by their own uneducated feelings and nothing will convince them otherwise. I applaud you on your efforts though. Lot of good information here.
I don’t disagree, they’re an incredibly propagandized individual, but engaging in discussions like that gives me practice for engaging in discussions with similarly propagandized people I know IRL. It’s helped me convert at least one person from an anti-vax conservative into a moderate at least leftist.
Not who you were responding to.
I’ve given up. I don’t have it in me anymore to keep trying. Never was able to get anyone back to reality after they went deep into it. Friends and family. It’s a terrible damn problem. Basically a big chunk of society needs to be deprogrammed and I haven’t seen anything that will do the trick.
Not that I’m in any way disparaging your efforts. Good luck and god speed. Maybe you’ll find some sort of magic that will flip the switch. You’d be a motherfucking hero, no irony.
I’m too autistic to engage in these discussions with people because I cannot comprehend how they can just completely ignore irrefutable data just because they don’t feel that it is correct. It utterly baffled me that people can be so controlled by their emotions to the point of just straight up rejecting reality.
Like, I get it. I understand it on a psychological level and how they are just victims of their own innate human psychology but I for the life of me cannot have a discussion with these people about it because they just do not listen nor care about facts and I have no patience to dance around it for the sake of protecting their fragile egos.
I’m essentially a modern day Ignaz Sammelweis.
I cannot comprehend how they can just completely ignore irrefutable data just because they don’t feel that it is correct.
Everyone does this. YOU do this.
Yes, you know the truth. And everybody around you knows the truth. And all of the right authorities agree with you. And this is all completely logical, obvious, right and scientific. And anybody who thinks otherwise is wrong, bad and insane.
It’s an old story.
Gods, you’re boring. Piss off with your utterly fallacious arguments.
Actually, they changed the definition to remove the “made from weakened organisms” part. To allow this other kind of “vaccine”.
Now take a breath.
Breathing just fine, thank you. I’ve been vaccinated
There aren’t “reasons” people are afraid of vaccines. The irrational fear comes first, and then people go looking for rationalizations like yours to explain the feelings they already have.
I like to think that I’m better than that of course. And no doubt it works both ways.
Lord, it’s so obvious. You wouldn’t find that bullshit persuasive if you didn’t already want to be persuaded.
How about you, do you think that you’re suffering from the influence?
How about you? Do you think you’re suffering from idiocy?
good talk
I have over my life discovered many such ways in which I do that kind of thing, which leads me to believe there may still be some which I am not aware of. But I think I have addressed any that I knew about.
What was your definition of vaccine? Vaccines have never 100% prevented people from contracting a virus. A virus is a living thing that once it enters your body and body has to react. If your body doesn’t recognize it is bad, it may ignore it and allow it to replicate and spread without any resistance. If your body knows it is bad, it starts to put up a resistance and fight it soon as it sees it. Both bodies “contracted the virus” but the one who got a vaccine knows when it sees it to start working against it sooner; hopefully preventing it from spreading to much or causing any serious symptoms.
I like to think of it like making the opposition wear a red shirt. When you see a red shirt, you know it’s an invader, without the vaccine, you don’t know what to look for, so you let the red shirt population grow and spread until you notice that the red shirts are causing problems, then you recognize them as an invader, but they are spread throughout the body and ingrained into the population. A lot more opposition… Thus the battle isn’t as quickly won, or if unlucky, the damages get to severe before being able to clear out all the invaders, and you die.
Super serious side effects which is why it was safely administered to 70% of the globe. Side effects so serious you don’t know a single person with a verifiable case! That fear mongering worked before billions of people received the vaccine 5 years ago. Someone update your bot.
I’ve heard of lots of side effects actually.
Yea my dick’s bigger and im 4" taller. According to me and many sources on Facebook, corroborated by ur mom.
Most people don’t understand vaccines and being afraid of what you don’t understand is completely reasonable.
When you have influencers feeding on that fear and making it grow then it becomes an issue.
Add to that we’re constantly being lied to it’s hard to know what the truth is and what isn’t unless you deeply research a topic, and honestly:
Most vaccine hesitant people use Facebook or YouTube to research which compounds the problem.
This is why people using biased AI to ask questions terrifies me.
Maybe the AI will be less salty than the foreign actors. If I had to chose, Id go with AI. AI is a product that needs to be reliable if it is to succeed. Foreign actors hate my guts for exsisting.
AI is programmed by foreign actors. And on top of that it trains you not to think for yourself and believe what you read. It shuts down critical thought and makes you even easier to manipulate.
AI isn’t programmed its trained. Just look at all the trouble Elon is having trying to red pill grok.
And they can choose what data to use to train it. It trains you to rely on it instead of thinking for yourself. Once you rely on it they enshittify and subvert it. It’s dangerous to rely on a source of information solely controlled by a billionaire with ulterior motives.
Look at what Google has become. Or the news/media industry. Get your information from trustworthy sources. AI is not.
AI is a product that needs to be reliable if it is to succeed.
They’re doing a shit poor job of making it reliable so far.
Meh, its an emerging technology
It’s a way of using mass amounts of power to make billionaires richer I don’t think it’ll ever be reliable.
“Being afraid of what you don’t understand is completely reasonable”
No it isn’t… It’s common, but not reasonable, and it’s a big factor in so much bad about humanity. We need to teach people to specifically NOT be afraid of stuff they don’t understand and instead learn more about that those things, and to never have strong opinions (which includes fear) about things they know nothing or little about.
Being afraid of what you dont understand is instilled to us by our own evolution. We lived tens of thousands of years in a state where unfamiliar berry or strange animal could mean death.
But you are right. School system svould be better in explaining what vaccines do and how they work and society should be better shooting misinformation down.
Also instead of ridiculing the antivacciners people should try to be polite and try to help them understand what vaccines are. Being hostile or condesending just makes people to withdraw in to their own safe belives
Na a bunch of them are actually afraid of the pointy needle.
Gear of medical debt comes up for some too, but since the covid vaccines were free they had to pretend they weren’t afraid of the needles instead.
I’m only scared of vaccines because they’re delivered via a needle. At this point I really shouldn’t be acted of needles any more after injecting myself every week for ages, but for some reason I am 🤷♀️
I’m also a needle-weenie. I tell a different nurse each time and we joke about it – despite getting like 9 shots in one day in Basic. Then I wince a bit as I get the shot, put my stereotypically plaid coat back on and off I go.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study#Public_trust
There’s been a systematic undermining of public trust in health and safety instructions going on for decades.
Some of this distrust is earned as with Tuskegee, the bungled Anthrax vaccine, the Reagan Era response to the AIDS epidemic, scandals with weight loss drugs like Fen-phen and Redux, Oxycodone, etc.
Some of it is purely manufactured, with the CIA-sponsored agitation against the Chinese COVID vaccine being a major font of modern day anti-vax Truther Lore.
But to no-sell skepticism as just “you’re a little baby who is scared of needles” really under plays the shift in attitude nationally. We used to be a country that whole heartedly embraced a preventative for small pox, polio, and influenza. Now we’re more terrified of kids getting the shot that gives you bad grades in school than getting measels.
We used to be a country that whole heartedly embraced a preventative for small pox, polio, and influenza
Yea, no… you got a very rosy image of history in your mind. There were massive protests and constant public pushback against vaccines for as long as vaccines have existed.
The fight for widespread adoption of vaccination has been rough fought against the tides of the confidently ignorant who let their irrational emotions control them.
America doesn’t just do this domestically. They have interfered in other nations public health perceptions as well. The CIA undermined polio vaccination programs in Pakistan when global eradication actually seemed possible.
America doesn’t just do this domestically.
They do. It’s just tied up in the private sector. Tons of quackery on American TV and in news journals. Everything from “Head On, Apply Directly to The Forehead” to Dr Oz shilling ginseng as a panacea to the social media conspiracies about MedBeds that Trump himself retweeted.
The CIA undermined polio vaccination programs in Pakistan when global eradication actually seemed possible.
Can’t let the wrong kind of people benefit
There’s been a systematic undermining of public trust in health and safety instructions going on for decades.
A lot of it perpetrated by those very industries themselves. It’s the natural consequence of letting every facet of societal motivation be dictated by profit maximization.
Like I said in another comment, I think what the antivaxers are incapable of understanding and expressing is that they are not actually questioning the science, they are questioning the health care industry and the systems meant to keep them honest. And in that I would agree with them, if only they were able to articulate it.
I think what the antivaxers are incapable of understanding and expressing is that they are not actually questioning the science, they are questioning the health care industry and the systems meant to keep them honest.
A lot of the opposition to vaccination reads like fad diets and self-help trends from 20 or 30 years ago. You can prevent autism by fumbles around playing Motzart to your baby in utero? Meditating during Yoga? Eating chocolate? Pick your Oprah-sponsored poison.
But, like, why are we seeing a fixation on a proven medical treatment and not some generic “don’t let your kids eat jelly beans” or “do headstands to get the blood flowing to the brain” hookum?
I think that’s where you get to people really running afoul of an increasingly dysfunctional health media ecosystem. One whose reputation is bloated with empty promises about The Perfect Cancer / Alzheimer’s Cure or Living Forever With Blood Transfusions. And then it’s colliding with an actual system that just seems to throw enormous bills at you for pain killers and palliative care.
On the one end, there’s supposed to be a recipe for perfect health if you have enough money. On the other, I can get a flu shot and still get the flu? How unfair.
my brother is a 45 , socially he acts like a 8 year old all the time. Of course he worships trumps and refuses to get vaccinated ( even telling my elderly mom to not get the flu and covid shot) . This is why I only see him one day out of the year, and that will turn to Zero days of any time when my mom dies and he has no reason to come over for one day a year.
those blood test needles are the real scary shit
What I think antivaxers can’t articulate is that what they don’t actually trust is the health care industry, not the science behind vaccines themselves.
Which would be a valid concern, but that is not what they are saying.
You can trust medical science yet don’t trust the providers, history is rife with examples of big business endangering the public for higher profit margins.
They know that American healthcare providers in the past experimented on blacks and other PoC without telling them and they don’t want it done to them now that we’ve pushed to make everyone equal under the law.
This is why they’re so scared of equality as well - we’re all game for the unethical experimentation and exploitation of some of us aren’t in the protected class.
To really break the programming we need to get through that those lines are drawn on class, not on race as they appear, and that no class of divine human exists.
Yep, this, my mom doesn’t trust doctors. Apparantly, according to her, doctors in PRC was corrupt and always try to extort as much money as possible by doing “unnecessary ‘treatments’”, according to her.
She told me that both my older brother and I were both C-Section and like she doubted if it was even necessary, she believed that the doctors were just trying to make extra money because surgery costed more… but she had no choice but go along with it… because she had no idea if the fetus (aka: me and my older brother) were at risk.
As for vaccines… government policy… I guess both the collectivist society and pressure from government
US Government definitely required vaccination records before giving us immigration visas…
Its kinda funny, does the currnt admin allow immigrants without vaccinations? Or make it stricter to make immigration harder?
[Insert 2 red button meme here]
Women who have been through childbirth have certainly earned the right to be skeptical of doctors/ medicine. Women are still being mistreated and discounted in hospitals today, especially women of color. You have to get lucky to get nurses and doctors who treat your body as worthy of care, and you as worthy of belief and autonomy.
Being afraid of needles is fine though, right?
My mother has become, in her later years, a “well idk if they definitely cause autism but I did vaccinate all of you and I do have a kid with autism…” which like. whatever. I’ve been over talking to them for a while now anyway.
But when I was younger and getting vaccinated she always said,“you’re gonna look at the wall in the other direction, it’s gonna hurt for a few seconds then it’ll be over and there’s an ice cream place next door.” And I have almost 0 medical anxiety, like I’ll let new grads I’m precepting practice on me before I let them stick a real patient.
vs I remember when I was a swimming instructor in my early 20s sometimes a kid would start crying and their parent would come over to scream at them to behave and then it would take waaay longer to get their body to relax enough to float.
So while I’m sure it doesn’t make or break every fear of needles or medical anxiety, I do think a LOT of it comes down to how the parent handles and ideally normalizes routine medical care.
Frankly, I think that’s it. When I got shots, my parents would constantly remind me of how much it would hurt and laugh at me over my fear. I’m still scared of needles nowadays, even if by all objective measures they really don’t hurt at all
Psychology is weird and the brain holds on to a lot of baggage. The brain is a very irrational and illogical meat computer, after all. It doesn’t care about objective reality, only our perception of it.
I hope so. Irrational fears are really hard to control.
There is reasons to be afraid of needles. Courage is not having no fear, its facing your fear.
I remember the nurses just belittling me when I was like 10 and like I was scared of needles…
Something something “boys need to be brave” or something
If you’re an American, having deep seated mistrust and skepticism of the medical establishment, pharma, and government is 1000% justifiable. Every one of these institutions has exploited, abused, abandoned, and murdered people, all in the name of public health.
As a person who grew up in poverty, the idea of trusting doctors and medical authorities is just as ridiculous as trusting the police.
Assuming that social problems are the sum of individuals making dumb choices is an easy shortcut that not only eliminates the discomfort of thinking about the issue, but has the added benefit to implying that you’re superior.
That mistrust erroneously extends to academia though, and they’re more than happy to ignore the experts who aren’t connected to industry
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How is academia totally separate? I get how the opiate crisis is purely big Pharma exploiting people for profit, but the tuskeegee experiments were research. Isn’t that medicine and academia?
this is why we need to educate people. it does require a certain level of trust in the system to accept a shot will prevent your kid from dying of measles or whooping cough. a system that also conducted the heinous Tuskegee Syphilis Study, then never held those same criminals or the decision makers accountable for their crimes.
governments do thousands of things; not every single one is predicated on evil intentions, many, probably most, are for the good of their people. think running water and sewage. think power and roads.
sometimes they go fuckbrained. which is why we need whistleblowers, accountability, CONSEQUENCES, etc.
i dont have a problem with vaccines, theyre great and im glad they help people
but, recieving one is absolutely terrifying to be, due to some needle related trauma, and generally causes me to pass out or vomit :/
Sounds like you may have a vasovagal reaction? My dad gets that too.
I’ve had some really bad experiences in the past as well including passing out and nausea. Luckily at least for smaller needles like vaccines/dental work I no longer suffer from that. I still lay down if blood is being drawn.
It took a long time, but I think the dentist giving me some sedatives for the needles helped me get more comfortable with it since I knew they helped, and eventually, I was able to try without and it was hard but it did help, and it just got easier from there.
It still sucks, but it’s manageable now.
If you struggle at the dentist like I did, maybe that’s an option if you need work done and a path forward.
It’s a shame that’s not an option typically offered for other needles. I bet it could help people get vaccines if it was offered.
never had to at the dentist and luckily the doctors said i need no more vaccines (unless we get another covid kinda deal or i travel to a country with foreign illnesses) so its not something i have to worry about for a while
thinking about it makes me feel a little light headed though, and normally i enjoy having phantom sense for stuff like asmr and vr but its also a curse when i think about needles and i can feel one in my arm where they do the vaccines. not fun
I think its worth pointing out that needing a vaccine is different than getting and benefiting from a vaccine.
Seasonal Flu and Covid vaccines are still beneficial, so while you don’t need any, if there is a way to beat the phobia, you can still benefit.
It’s not likely that anyone is going to offer you something like Xanax or Ativan for a yearly flu shot, but maybe your Dr would knowing your circumstances, and that could be a slow process to maybe beating it by getting some successful years behind you using that method?
do people like, know their doctors like that? its always just been get a letter saying get vaccinated, we book, and its some random NHS place and a doctor ive never seen
Some people have relationships like that with their longtime family Dr, I never have though, nor do I even have one right now.
